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March 5, 2008 04:39 PM

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Tribal9499

Member
Joined: 03/05/2008

Hi all, new to the forum and the world of lcd tvs.  Long story short, I'm in the market for a new tv.  Until today I had been completely decided on the 52' Sony Bravia XBR4.  This was based on a few things: 1) I've been a Sony fan for sometime and have never had a problem with their products 2)this particular set has the features I want in the price I was willing to spend 3) Consumer reports has rated the Sony Bravia line # 1 in both 52" and 47" lcds in their most recent review.

Now then, today I decided to go around to a few of my local tv repair shops.  I found some of these folks to be more knowledgable than others as one might expect.  Of 5 repair shops I soke to today all 5 told me to stay far and clear away from SONY!!!  I was devestated. The reasons they gave varied slightly but all shared the thought that Sony's service is horendous.  1 of the shops no longer repairs Sony sets because of a  Sony restructuring that took their license away, the other 4 however refuse to service Sony sets.  By the way most of these places have been in business for about 25 years on average. 

 They all also recommended the same brand of set to consider instead.  Not that it matters but they all thought highly of the Sharp Aquos line, mitsubishi and panasonic in that order.

 One of the shops went as far as to say that he had heard that Sony was facing a class action lawsuit that will result in their warranties (on TVs) "not being worth the paper they're printed on".

Any thoughts on all of this would be greatly appreciated.

 Also, 2 of 5 of these shops agreed to the following statement and the other 3 stated they didn't know.  Haven't been able to find a way to verify this for sure as of yet so decided to post it here:

 I was told today that any 1080p (the P (progressive scan) being the key letter in this) lcd that is boasting the 120hz refresh rate (Sony calls it motionflow, other companies have other names for it) is a gimick.  I was told by two of the shops that in order for a lcd to be 1080p it HAS to be 120hz.  They claimed that it is a fact that not many consumers know and as such the companies are able to market it as an additional feature.

 I received a much more detailed explanation that made sense to me but I am trying my best to keep this short of a novel.

 Any input on either of these issues would be much appreciated, especially the later.

 Thanks in advance.

Discussion:    Add a Comment | Comments 1-9 of 9 | Latest Comment

Generic Member Avatar
Expert
March 6, 2008 8:14 AM

I have worked with Sony for a number of years at a few authorized shops. Usually Sony only pulls authorization because of problems.  WIthout being a Sony service center, parts will cost more.  Also, I know of a number of instances where the warranty has been EXTENDED because of problems with certain models.  I will agree that Sony can be difficult to deal with at times, but I find that with all manufacturers at one point or another.  For example, we were required to repair some units to the component level and when we found that we could not, we were given the option to send it to the factory, expecting that we would find out the true problem (and learns something).  Nope, the factory just swaps out the board! Not an option for the local guys.

I'll  try to get you dininitive info on the refresh rates etc. and post it here.

Dan 

zapdbf Avatar
Expert
March 7, 2008 8:07 AM

I am an authorized Sony servicer, I don't have knowledge about any class action lawsuit, but i will tell you this, Stay away from the lcd projection televisions, Sony is not making them anymore, and they have a big problem with dust in the light engine, you can't clean the light engine you have to replace it, and that is a $1000 part. You will see the projections going on sale soon to get rid of them but they are bad news.  The flat panels are fine, So far we have had little trouble out of them. Samsung projections are the worst, they have a problem with miss-firing pixels, that cause a sparkle effect.  

Generic Member Avatar
Member
March 7, 2008 11:20 AM

Thanks for the quick replies Dan and zapdbf. 

I'm still very much interested in the Sony XBR line and am finding it difficult to stay away from them.  I know that brand loyalty is a silly thing to base a purchase on but ultimately I think one is happiest when they purchase what they really want (until it breaks on ya:) .  None the less , I still would like to make an informed decision before I shell out 3 G's on a tv.

 Still have the question about the 120hz refresh rate issue.  If anyone stumbles across a good article or something please let me know.

Thanks again.

Generic Member Avatar
Expert
March 7, 2008 2:14 PM

I'm trying to get teh definitive scoop on the refresh rate for you.  My local "expert" is on a roadshow at the moment.  I shouldhave an answer in a few days.

Dan

Larry Dillon Avatar
Expert
March 13, 2008 8:57 AM

I borrowed this from http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/03/BU4VVAT3M.DTL

The refresh rate denotes how often the image on the screen is redrawn each second. It's usually expressed in hertz, a unit of measurement for frequencies. The standard refresh rate for TVs until now has been 60 Hz. For most television programming that's perfectly adequate, because video for TV usually is shot at 30 frames per second-which divides evenly into 60. The only time you run into problems is with movies on film, which traditionally have been shot at 24 frames per second. Because 24 doesn't divide evenly into 60, a mathematical process is needed to synchronize the picture. But you don't need that process if you double the refresh rate to 120, which happens to be exactly divisible by 24. Long story short, a 120-Hz refresh rate will give a better picture when you play DVD movies, especially those featuring fast action. But it's not that much better. I've watched "Transformers" on a 47-inch 1080p set with a 60-Hz refresh rate, and it looked great. Eventually, all HDTVs probably will be 120 Hz. In the meantime, if the set you want has it, fine. If it doesn't, no big deal.

"Those who do not know their opponet's arguments, do not completely understand their own".

Generic Member Avatar
Member
March 13, 2008 10:30 AM

Right, I appreciate the column however I understand how the the refresh rate works and why it exists.  The question is that the repair man I spoke to claimed that ALL 1080p capable sets MUST operate at 120hz.  He was explaining that in order for a set to operate at 1080p there is no way that the refresh rate could be less than 120hz.  He was implying that television manufacturers are advertising their "newer" sets boasting the 120hz refresh rate as a gimmick.  He's saying that the model just before the 120hz set is also a 120hz capable tv if its capable of 1080p.  They just waited to mention the 120hz as a way to put out a "new" model with the feature.

I'm trying to verify if there is any truth to this.  I went to ultimate electronics where i was looking at the sony bravia xbr4 (a 1080p 120hz set), they have it sitting next to another bravia (can't remember the model now, will have to go back and look again) which does not advertise that it has the 120hz refresh rate.  They use it to do a side by side comparisson, one tv with 120hz refresh rate and one without.  However,  the set "without" the 120hz refresh rate (meaning it should be a 60hz) obviously does not have and info about the 120hz refresh rate on the sale ticket, nor on any of the nifty stickers on the face of the tv, manufacturers always point out the 120hz refresh rate as an additional feature and there is a considerable price hike attached to it.  Here's the kicker, the salesman showed me on the non 120hz refresh rate set that it does infact have that capability.  They just have it turned off in the menu to show the comparison.  The point is both tvs are capable of 120hz but it is only advertised on one set as an additional feature with a $600 or more price hike.

 This tends to support what the repair guy told me, I'm just trying to get a definitive answer to his claim.

Larry Dillon Avatar
Expert
March 13, 2008 10:41 AM

120Hz LCD panels are a promising technology. Of course, they're expensive today and only found on higher-end models. Bravia XBR4 is a Sony LCD line that carries the feature but you'll pay dearly for it. I do not think that just because a set is 1080P, that it automatically has a refresh rate of 120 HZ. As i understand it, these 120 Hz sets have special LCD panels. If you're shopping for an HDTV and don't want to miss out on the new high-frequency displays, it might be a good time to look at plasma technology as a low-cost alternative. A plasma HDTV may have a 60Hz refresh rate while each individual pixel pulses about 12 times per cycle, combining for a phenomenal refresh rate of 720Hz!

"Those who do not know their opponet's arguments, do not completely understand their own".

Generic Member Avatar
Expert
March 13, 2008 12:34 PM

1080p is the shorthand name for a category of display resolutions. The number "1080" represents 1,080 lines of vertical resolution,[1] while the letter p stands for progressive scan (meaning the image is not interlaced). 1080p is considered an HDTV video mode. The term usually assumes a widescreen aspect ratio of 16:9, implying a horizontal resolution of 1920 pixels. This creates a frame resolution of 1920×1080, or 2,073,600 pixels in total. The frame rate in Hertz can be either implied by the context or specified after the letter p, such as 1080p30, meaning 30 Hz.

1080p is sometimes referred to in marketing materials as "Full High-Definition". However, 2K/4K digital cinema technology is commercially available, and ultra-high definition video is in the research phase.

In addition to the meaning of 1080p as a display resolution, 1080p is also used to describe video equipment capabilities. Use of 1080p and the closely related 1080i labels in consumer products may refer to a range of capabilities. For example, video equipment that upscales to 1080p takes lower resolution material and reformats it for a higher resolution display. The image that results is different from the display of original 1080p source material on a native 1080p capable display. Similarly, equipment capable of displaying both 720p and 1080i may in fact not have the capability to display 1080p or 1080i material at full resolution. It is common for this material to be downscaled to the native capability of the equipment. The term "native 1080p capable" is sometimes used to refer to equipment capable of rendering 1080p fully.

The ATSC and DVB support 1080p video, but only at the frame rates of 24, 25, and 30 frames per second (1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p30) and their 1000/1001-rate slow versions (e.g., 29.97 frames per second instead of 30). Higher frame rates, such as 1080p50 and 1080p60, could only be sent with more bandwidth or if a more advanced codec (such as H.264/MPEG-4 AVC) were used. Higher frame rates such as 1080p50 and 1080p60 are foreseen as the future broadcasting standard for production.

========================

I extracted the above from an Internet listing that I thought explained everything quite clearly.  Please note that only broadcasts at 30 frames per second exist at this time.  With a refresh rate of 60, you should be fine.  The 120Hz rate is for future stuff.  I doubt that you will see the difference unless in a high movement scene.

Dan

Generic Member Avatar
Member
May 8, 2008 10:22 AM

Thanks so much for all the replies. Sorry i haven't replied sooner, been a bit tied up. I think all of the above has answered my questions. In reply to Larry's post, I have considered plasma sets but this particular set will beused heavily for gaming. I've yet to see anything that recommends gaming on the plasma screens since the burn in issue does still exist. Games that have a static health bar or ammo or something to that affect could become a problem if you are playing for several hours at a time.

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